Steve Hackett is headed to Phoenix on a tour celebrating the 50th anniversary of “The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway,” a sprawling concept album that left the Genesis guitarist feeling a bit like a triangle player at the time.
Between its heavy focus on Tony Banks’ virtuosic keyboard work and Peter Gabriel’s surreal portrayal of a troubled street kid named Rael, there wasn't as much room for Hackett to do as much as he'd have liked to on guitar.
It didn’t help that the sessions were marked by growing tension among the band with Gabriel eyeing the exit, on the verge of going solo.
Over time, of course, “The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway” has come to be viewed as a bit of watershed moment in the history of not just Genesis but concept albums and progressive rock in general, famously hailed in a New Yorker feature as “the ‘Ulysses’ of concept albums.”
Hackett checked in from the road to share his memories of the making of the album and what to expect from his concert in Phoenix, which will also feature highlights of his solo years as well as a healthy assortment of songs from “Foxtrot.”
'The Lamb Lies Down' was 'one of the most difficult albums to do'
You’re coming through to on a tour celebrating the 50th anniversary of "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway." I was hoping you could share your thoughts on what that album meant for Genesis.
Well, you know, it was one of the most difficult albums to do because our lead singer at that time was Peter Gabriel and he was plainly going to leave the band. So there are aspects of "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway," which are more like a Peter Gabriel solo album.
Having said that, we all wrote the stuff. But Pete wanted to write the story and wanted to do all the lyrics, wanted to sing all the lyrics he'd written himself, which is perfectly understandable, because I was to do the same thing myself. Two years later, I was to walk away from the band.
It’s very difficult to be in a band full of very creative writers, as Genesis was. A lot of people were capable of writing hits on their own, as they proved in subsequent years, and it was a highly creative team but highly competitive. Having said that, it was a great album, a very positive album.
I enjoy doing nine tracks from it myself on this tour in order to leave room for other things. There's a solo set. We do 25 minutes or so of stuff from "Foxtrot." But there's a celebration of "The Lamb."
There’s also a remix of "The Lamb" and a box set that’s been released roughly 50 years after the event. So we all met up in London to celebrate that, at least four out of five of us. Phil Collins wasn't well enough to attend. He's had a lot of health issues, which are very well known, of course. So it's an album of mixed blessings.
Steve Hackett reflects on Peter Gabriel's lyrics to 'The Lamb'
What did you think of the storyline and the lyrics that Peter came up with?
At the time, I think many of us were baffled. But in time, what we've come to accept is that so much of it was very good. I mean, it was very much a fantasy. There's an aspect of Lewis Carroll in there. There's the fantasy world and the hard-edged reality that he wanted to describe, really. There's kind of a clash between those two different sensibilities.
You’d have to talk to Pete about "What is the story all about? Is it a modern-day story of redemption?" I suspect it is in terms of right at the end, he’s saved his brother's life only to find that his brother's face is the same as his own, similar to some of the concepts which were being discussed by Joseph Campbell.
It's a weird and wacky ride initially through the streets of New York, but it ends up anywhere but that. I think there's also autobiographical moments.
I think "The Chamber of 32 Doors," which is a beautiful song, one of my favorites and one of the ones we do live, that's plainly more autobiographical. I think it's less to do with Rael and more about Pete’s desire to want to move on while at the same time being fearful that maybe that isn't the most positive move that he could do. But he took a chance on that and had huge success.
Hackett had 'much more space to move' on 'Selling England'
You were coming off of "Selling England by the Pound," which you have called your favorite Genesis album. How do you see "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" in relation to that record?
Well, "Selling England by the Pound" was more dominated by guitar work, and "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" was more dominated by keyboard work. So in terms of my closeness to the material, I would say that I had much more space to move on "Selling England by the Pound."
I also think the level of competition between Peter Gabriel and Tony during "The Lamb" made it much more difficult for the rest of us to find our feet within the concept. Dense lyrical passages, dense keyboard passages, many of which were virtuosic, and Pete was singing across virtuosic keyboard moments. It makes for a very claustrophobic atmosphere.
But it makes for a very interesting combo of things. You've got a classical sensibility meeting Pete’s desire to want to do something a little bit like "West Side Story." And I suspect that Tony at the time was exhibiting more virtuosic keyboard work. He was giving other well-known keyboard players a fair run for their money. I'm thinking of Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman. So there's a lot of synth work.
Why Hackett felt like a triangle player on 'The Lamb Lies Down'
What were your thoughts going into that album as to what kind of record you wanted to make?
Well, the kind of record I wanted to make was rather different. I wanted to do something which was rather more romantic at that time. I was still very much enthralled by what Mellotrons could do, and I wanted the band to sound like an orchestra. Now, in places, it did. It sounded like an orchestra and a choir and all those things.
I think Peter wanted a a harder-edged thing, the kind of stuff that he achieved with "Peter Gabriel 3," his album that had "Intruder" on it and "No Self Control," that kind of stuff. I can see where he was headed, and I understand that totally — the more industrial, ’80s-tinged stuff.
But we were still firmly in the mid-’70s and I was looking for openings of things to do with guitar. So I was having to think like an orchestral player a lot of the time in order to come up with very subtle guitar work.
At times, it was almost a case of "What does the triangle player do in an orchestra?" Occasionally, you do something that sets it alight. But in the main, I had to take a much more subservient role, which is why I did "Voyage of the Acolyte." I followed it up with a solo album in order to express not just my frustration but also to stretch myself and to see whether I could come up with an album full of ideas.
And I do quite a few of those songs live these days as well. I rotate them, but I do quite a few from "Acolyte." But as I say, I do nine songs from "Lamb Lies Down."
I do the title track, which segues neatly into "Fly on a Windshield." Then I follow with "Hairless Heart," which is something that I wrote with Tony Banks. I do "Lilywhite Lilith" and "The Lamia." I may have left one or two things out. Of course, "The Chamber of 32 Doors," I do that because it’s got a guitar intro I'm very proud of.
You said you felt a bit like a triangle player on that record?
That's right. Yes, that's it. You know, "Is it my turn to play now?" "No. Shut up and play your triangle."
Hackett sees 'The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' as 'a very good album'
That's funny. I mean, I imagine it wasn't funny at the time. Is it easier to appreciate that album this far removed from the tension surrounding it?
Yeah. I think many of us in the band have said we think it would probably have been stronger if it had been a single album. But you've got all those things on the periphery. You've got all those things on the extreme in terms of experimentation. I think it's a very good album. I just have ambivalent feelings toward it.
But the contributions that I made to it in terms of guitar, I think, are very, very good indeed. So it stands up there with some of the best guitar work that's on "Selling England by the Pound." There's just less of it. There's more guitar work, frankly, on "Foxtrot."
By the time we were doing ‘Lamb,’ band life had become a lot more complicated. We were trying to write and record in a derelict house where you were literally dodging rats. And people were going through births, deaths and marriages at that time. We were all getting older and I think that the idea of getting it together in the country was becoming more demanding.
After that, we started recording in town and obviously, we were to lose Pete halfway through the touring of that album. He said he would stay until the end of touring. We toured it for about nine months almost straight. It took us all over Europe, all over the States and Canada.
It was an interesting time, but personally I feel I'm a better and more accomplished writer, guitarist and singer these days than I was at that time, when I was a young 24-, 25-year-old.
You left a few years after Peter.
I did two more albums after that. I did "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind & Wuthering." And then there was a live album, "Seconds Out."
How did Peter’s departure affect the band dynamic?
Well, up to then, we'd been crediting everything to the entire band. That changed. Mike and Tony, who'd been founding members, wanted to change that. So I think it made "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind & Wuthering" more difficult. They were great albums, as it happens. But there's that competitive edge that's in there. So that's how the band dynamic changed.
Of course, it was easier in many ways because when you're dealing with four writers instead of five, it's easier to get space. But once I'd already done "Voyage of the Acolyte," the first solo thing, I found it more difficult going back to being a band member. Once you've been captain of your own ship, it's harder to go back to the idea of needing everyone's permission in order to get anything done at all.
So I was to do "Please Don't Touch." I worked with a number of Americans on that. Richie Havens. The guys from Kansas. Steve Walsh. Phil Ehart. Randy Crawford, who, as a result of working with me brought her some notoriety in the U.K. and Europe, and she had a massively successful solo career.
She's mainly known over here for being the singer on the Crusaders’ "Street Life." I don't think things perhaps took off for her on this side of the pond, but they certainly did back in the U.K.
Getting together with Genesis members is 'very emotional' for Hackett
You said you got together with everyone but Phil for the reissue of "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway." What was that like?
We did a day of interviews, and it was very affectionate seeing the guys. It’s always nice to see them, particularly when you know how much everyone has achieved individually. It's very emotional seeing them in so many ways. There's always the competitive edge, but then I think there always will be. Each of us by now have run our own show in some way or other, and I'm sure each one of us feels we know best. Of course, I know best.
Could you see yourself working with those guys again?
From time to time, the idea comes up. I think we tend to help each other in a different sense. For instance, there’s some girls who have escaped from Afghanistan into Pakistan and they’re doing things in music. Peter Gabriel has said he'll help them. They've appealed to me to see if I'll help, and I've said I will as well. So in a way, we're pitching in. But we're still in two separate tents.
Maybe there'll be something that will combine these three girls and Pete and myself in some sort of way. Maybe it'll just be encouragement, but I've offered to perhaps do some guitar for them, and I hope that something comes of it, because I think they're terribly vulnerable.
In Afghanistan, they cannot work. They're not allowed to because of a repressive regime. And in Pakistan, it's a little more relaxed and a woman can at least earn a living. So I guess we're involved by proxy or at a distance with something that's to do with social change. And whatever we do with them, I hope it takes off.
It’s one of many causes I get asked to participate in. We're in a privileged position to be able to work in a free country. Not all the world is free, as we know. The world is at a volatile point and one tries to do what one can. Would that everyone had their fair share of the world's goods and all the rest. Peace and love, man. That's what I say. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. All those 1960s ideas.
They were ideas worth pursuing.
Yeah, that's right. Until we all manage to get along as a brotherhood of man, it's a distant dream, but you've gotta light a candle while you rage against the dark.
Steve Hackett
When: 7:30 p.m. Tuesday, Nov. 11.
Where: Celebrity Theatre, 440 N. 32nd St., Phoenix.
